Ben and Heather are joined by Klaudia Gebert, psychologist and founder of Self Reflection, to talk about transitioning to life as a single person after separation. Topics discussed include:
Follow Klaudia
Self Reflections – Klaudia’s website
Self Reflections Podcast – Klaudia’s podcast aimed at fostering a resilient, enlightened self.
Instagram: @selfreflectionsclinic, @klaudia.gebert, @selfreflectionspodcast
YouTube: @officialselfreflections
Other Links
Join or Die – a documentary streaming on Netflix about the importance of clubs to community connection.
Should I Stay or Should I Go? – podcast episode with the CEO of Relationships Australia NSW, exploring the stay or go decision.
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Benjamin Bryant: Welcome to episode 59 of The Family Matters Show. I’m your host, Benjamin Bryant from Bryant McKinnon Lawyers. Today we are going to talk about a subject that affects almost everyone who goes through a separation or divorce: transitioning from being a couple into single life. There’s so much emotion and uncertainty that can arise when you suddenly wake up alone in your bed. To talk about some of the issues and how to move forward positively. I am joined by my partner and family law specialist Heather McKinnon and our special guest psychologist, Klaudia Gebert. Klaudia has more than two decades of clinical experience. In 2014, she founded Self-Reflections in Wollongong, offering a space that promotes holistic wellbeing and personal growth.
Benjamin Bryant: Before jumping in with Heather and Klaudia, a quick reminder to share this podcast with any family and friends who are starting down the path of separation. We now have an extensive library of podcasts that provide the answers people need to feel less fearful and to make informed decisions. And now on with the show.
Benjamin Bryant: Hello Klaudia, and welcome to The Family Matters Show.
Klaudia Gebert: Hi Ben and Heather. Thank you so much for having me
Benjamin Bryant: Also, thank you Heather for being here again.
Heather McKinnon: It’s an absolute pleasure. I’m excited to hear you two chat.
Benjamin Bryant: I’m excited too. So, Klaudia, what I’m going to do is I’m just going to jump into the first question that we have for you.
Klaudia Gebert: No problem.
Benjamin Bryant: We often have to remind our clients that they need to take time to grieve the loss of their marriage. Would you agree with this? And if yes, do you have thoughts on how to grieve?
Klaudia Gebert: Yes. Grieving is a crucial part of the loss of a marriage. It’s so important to acknowledge that a divorce or separation is a major life transition and can be as emotionally impactful as other forms of loss. People should allow themselves to experience the full range of emotions that come with this grief. For example, sadness, anger, relief, or sometimes even confusion. Research shows that treating a divorce like another significant loss and allowing oneself to grieve can actually facilitate better emotional recovery for individuals. When we look at attachment theory, it applies here as well. So it suggests that losing a significant attachment figure, like a spouse, for example, triggers a grieving process that involves the standard grieving emotions: denial, anger, bargaining, depression. Even at one point, acceptance. A healthy way to grieve could involve structured rituals like writing letters to their former self or the relationship, journaling about their feelings, or even something completely symbolic like a letting go ceremony. And sometimes it gets so challenging and difficult that seeking support through therapy, friends or family is also a really important aspect of providing a safe space for those emotions that are naturally going to come up as part of the grieving of that relationship, to be able to process and for you to slowly go into a stage of moving on, in whatever way that looks like for you.
Benjamin Bryant: I’m glad you mentioned, the stages of grief, because Heather and I, in our role advising parties that have recently separated, we talk about the grief cycle or the stages of grief. But in the context of separation, it’s really identifying the difference between the “leaver” and the person that is left. Because in most relationships, it’s not a conscious uncoupling, as it were. You have someone that has been thinking about separation for so long and they’ve already started grieving and planning and doing all the things. The other party, on the other hand, was like, well, I didn’t think the relationship was great, but I didn’t think it was that bad. And so they have to kind of play catch up. And what’s really unique about a separation is that the grief is ongoing because sometimes you still have to see that person every day. So it’s actually a really strange dynamic to try and navigate.
Klaudia Gebert: I agree with you. It’s very complex and multi-layered and depending on the dynamics of the relationship and how it broke down, the communication styles or even how amicable it was towards the end there or after the separation plays into how accepting a person is in moving through those emotions. I think the more complex, the more challenging the dynamics are between the two individuals, the harder that grieving process will be.
Benjamin Bryant: And what if a newly single person thinks, just maybe we’ll get back together? Is that necessarily a bad thing?
Klaudia Gebert: Straight answer is no. According to studies, we know that nearly half of separated couples will naturally attempt reconciliation. But what often happens is some people might actually face issues without actually resolving things that were the reason why the relationship broke down. I think hope naturally can be a double-edged sword. On one hand, it’s natural to hope for reconciliation, especially immediately following a separation. But on the other, clinging to hope can prevent emotional healing and moving on. And it really depends on, like you said before, Ben, how much the person who is hoping to leave or wants to leave or end the relationship, how far have they actually gone through their grieving process and have already accepted that there’s no chance of reconciliation? So individuals often seek stability in what is familiar. It’s crucial to use this time to actually deeply reflect on the dynamics of the relationship and one’s personal growth, rather than waiting for a reunion. Of course, I’m not saying that if a separation happens, some couples don’t then put the effort in at some point to reconnect and then try and make it work. But at the same time, you have to be connected to what is realistic and evaluate the reasons behind the separation and whether those underlying issues could actually and genuinely be resolved. So normally in therapy, I try and help my clients explore these feelings, but also guide them towards accepting what the present reality is and trying to focus more on self-growth, irrespective of the possibility of getting back together.
Benjamin Bryant: Yeah, and we find ourselves, talking about boundaries and insight quite a lot. Heather you’ve been in the game for quite a while. How many people do you see get back together?
Heather McKinnon: Very few. By the time people get to lawyers, they’ve usually explored a lot of those themes that Klaudia’s been talking about. So often the people that are attempting reconciliation will be in therapy, couples counselling, and it’s really difficult to watch the pain of people who really are trying. But then they have to, at some stage, come to the realisation that it’s not salvageable. As Klaudia pinpointed though, there are particular circumstances where I think the breakdown of a relationship is more salvageable than in others. And I’m thinking particularly of things like major illness or tragedy, like the death of a child. Often those transitions are very hard to navigate, and some people do come out the other end and reconcile. But in the main, I think that need for humans to have hope drives that first period of wishing that it could be different. But I think by the time they’re in our office, usually there’s at least some insight into the fact that it’s likely that it’s not going to happen.
Benjamin Bryant: Perhaps past the point of no return.
Heather McKinnon: Yeah, yeah. But certainly, that classic, Klaudia will know, in my age group, the breakdown of marriage at empty nest or when the first significant health crisis, like cancer, hits a spouse. Many relationships get the wobbles up, but it’s hard to know which one’s come out the other end intact. But they do. You can’t say there’s no hope, but it is all those things that Klaudia just mentioned: insight, willingness to work and get professional help. If you’re not resolving it and you’re going round and round in circles.
Benjamin Bryant: And Heather just reminded me of our episode, Should I Stay or Should I Go? So if that resonates with some of our listeners, please check that one out.
Benjamin Bryant: Klaudia, no matter how difficult the relationship is, suddenly not having your partner around to talk to can be shockingly lonely. Do you recommend any tactics to help your clients overcome loneliness?
Klaudia Gebert: Absolutely. Loneliness can be a profound experience after separation. Here we identify two types of loneliness. We’ve got social loneliness and emotional loneliness, two quite distinct types which need different types of remedies. Whenever we look at clients and they come through the door into what Heather was mentioning before, some clients actually come to therapy first, before they then access lawyers to be able to finalise certain things. So there’s this period of hope within salvaging relationships. If you’re seeing struggles early, you’re able to then build on that. But once that goes to moving through to working with lawyers and the separation then occurs, and then separation impacts each individual differently. So when they do come and see me, we try and differentiate the two. When we look at socialising, it helps mitigate social loneliness. That’s the first thing I encourage people to do. So while developing a deeper connection with oneself and others can address the emotional side of loneliness, actually connecting with others is very, very important to ensure that you’re not just in your space on your own and you’re not actively engaging in life post-separation. I do suggest embrace the solitude of reconnecting with yourself to begin with, as loneliness is naturally going to be challenging. But there’s a lot of work that actually can be done in that space. For example, you can be engaging in meditation, solo hobbies, or self-care routines that actually start to connect with your needs, your desires, what you want out of life, what you like, what you don’t like.
Klaudia Gebert: While in the same breath engage in social connections, which are also super vital. So that doesn’t just mean with friends or family. It also means what activities are you engaging in outside of your home and outside of just one on one work or activities that are going to bring about some level of connection to community? We know that any type of social connections is vital. We’re social beings, you know, we’re hardwired for love, connection and belonging. So when something as vital as a separation happens that gets severed. So really important to reconnect with old friends or current friends. Join new clubs or groups that align with your interests. Even volunteering can be a very fun new experience of filling that social void that does create a meaningful interaction with others, but also then allows you to gently move through the experience of loneliness. I want to also normalise here: you’re supposed to feel lonely. You’re supposed to feel pain. You’re supposed to feel grief. You’ve just endured a separation. And that naturally is going to bring about some really tough emotions to sit with. We sometimes fall into the trap of distracting ourselves so much and becoming so busy that we prevent ourselves from getting comfortable with the uncomfortable of loneliness, or just sitting with ourselves or whatever that might be. So I just want to highlight that we want to find that gentle balance between connecting with oneself and doing those activities, but also then engaging in social connectedness in a balanced way where you’re not just doing it to avoid pain, you’re doing it as a beacon of support through the emotion that is challenging for you to feel.
Benjamin Bryant: Thanks for normalising that, Klaudia. I think that’s very well said, and I find myself when talking with people thinking about separating, and they haven’t yet separated. I often say, scared of being alone is not a reason to stay with. So thank you.
Benjamin Bryant: Heather, you often tell me about clients you have helped through multiple separations. Do you have a sense of what they’re doing wrong?
Heather McKinnon: Exactly what Klaudia is talking about. So in our culture, we’re constantly bombarded with this idea that only romantic attachment can really fulfil a person’s need for social connection. So what I often see is people going straight to another romantic relationship, attaching to that person and failing to do that grief work that Klaudia is so beautifully speaking about. It’s really important to understand, too, that for some reason, culturally, in the last 20 years or so, we know that people are lacking social connection. Things like clubs and that are disappearing. I’d like to recommend to people who are interested in this field a Netflix documentary that our producer will put up online that summarises the research of a guy called Robert Putnam, who has studied his whole life, connection through social groups and the decline of clubs. So it’s really important that people understand that Klaudia is talking about social connection to people other than romantic partners and family. And as a community, we really need to start to really engage with these new social interaction groups like pub choir or creative pursuits in art classes or veterans’ hockey games or whatever it is that you love doing, get out and do it, because as a culture, we’re at risk of losing that community engagement. And what I see with serial clients that keep going through the same door is that they don’t do that investigation. And so their only way of survival is attaching to one other human. It’s just not going to give you the insight you need to grow as a human.
Benjamin Bryant: Which I think Heather is a great segue into what I was going to ask Klaudia next, which is in respect to, someone’s purpose. for many people, the end of marriage means a loss of their purpose. What can people do to reframe things, Klaudia, and find their new purpose?
Klaudia Gebert: That’s such a great question. And many people find themselves enmeshed in their relationship, whether it’s losing a sense of self, their true identity, or even connection to themselves or what they value outside of themselves. So after a significant life change like, separation or divorce, rediscovering or redefining one’s purpose is key to moving forward. And a lot of this naturally, especially with working with clients, is a lot of time on your own asking yourself the hard questions. Actually starting to take yourself out on dates and explore what that looks like for you. Because many people, when they leave this idea of what is safe within the family unit, they actually feel very scared to think that they’re not going to be able to find purpose again. And that’s a really hard thing for them to sit with. So what we tend to do is start asking those questions in therapy and really trying to ascertain, well, “Who were you before?” “Who are you during?” And “Who would you like to be now that this has finalised?” And it’s important for us to ascertain what type of changes or what type of things in one’s life are going to create a sense of purpose, because that’s going to be so unique and different to every individual.
Klaudia Gebert: If that’s hard for you to do on your own or even within your circles, that’s where professional support is really helpful because they’re able to differentiate between, the person that you developed into as a means of coping and just surviving and who you are truly at your core. So some of those journeys or things that might happen for individuals might be some career changes or pursuing forgotten passions or taking up new hobbies. And through that, it can be something as surface level as, okay, let’s set new goals and let’s do some experiments and let’s go trial different things. And like I mentioned before, take yourself out on dates and see what you like. If a person feels really stuck in not knowing that, the other level of therapy goes a lot deeper than that into really working with the core and seeing, well, why did we lose ourselves in the relationship? Why did we let ourselves let go of aspects of our desires and our needs and our wants? And why do we feel so left with nothing? On that deeper level, we’re able to heal a lot of wounds that they may have actually taken into the relationship, which they didn’t know.
Klaudia Gebert: And also then what dynamics occurred within the relationship may have then amplified that to a level of discomfort, disconnect, unhappiness, and then that naturally would lead to a separation because one does not feel fulfilled, one does not feel empowered or feel like they’re living their true version of themselves within the relationship. So this is a really important aspect, especially if people are hoping to get back into relationships in the future, and I’m sure we can talk about that throughout our episode today. But if you’re wanting to continue with someone in your future, you need to do the work on yourself to find purpose, to find meaning, to find who you actually are outside of being a partner, outside of being a parent if there are children involved. Because if you don’t, you’re going to be repeating the exact same patterns going into a new relationship. It’s just going to be muffled at first, because you’re going to be so excited with the novelty of something new or someone new, but it is super important for us to reconnect with a sense of value, a sense of purpose, and exploring what that looks like for you in a unique, personalised way.
Benjamin Bryant: Thanks Klaudia, and I’m sure our listeners will be grateful for those tips from you about, how to reinvent yourself, after separation. But do you have any ideas where they should not be looking for support?
Klaudia Gebert: Absolutely. So, of course, support should ideally come from healthy, stable sources: friends, family members who are supportive. They could be professional counsellors or therapists or any interest-based groups. It’s really important to avoid over-relying on your children if you have them or ex-partners for emotional support, as this can totally blur boundaries and hinder the healing process. So when we look at the psychological theory of social support, it highlights the role of quality support in stress reduction. So sometimes family and friends can be great, but professional help from therapists or support groups designed for individuals going through a separation or divorce can offer guidance that’s actually specific and tailored to navigating specific life transition. And the saying goes, lean on those who know how to hold the weight. Not everybody is actually going to be able to support you. And our friends and family are there for a purpose, but they don’t necessarily have all the skills to be able to be validating, to be able to be empathically confrontational or challenging if you need that. So you do need to be looking at where do I go for support that are actually going to hold this. And like I mentioned there are the appropriate pathways. There’s definitely an idea of not going to children or your ex-partner for that support, because it’s not their responsibility. And if any of these are a struggle for you, invest in professional guidance because that can actually provide you structured support and help in navigating the transition more effectively.
Benjamin Bryant: It sounds like we’re circling back to boundaries and insight, Klaudia.
Klaudia Gebert: Honestly, that is like the cornerstone of everything.
Benjamin Bryant: And of course, we can’t talk about a transition to a single life without talking about getting back on the horse, as they say. What are your thoughts on casual dating, as a way to fill the void and keep life interesting?
Klaudia Gebert: Well, casual dating can actually be a way to relearn social dynamics and enjoy the company of others without serious commitment. And sometimes I encourage it through my therapy to see what unresolved issues are going to come up for the person to bring it back to therapy, and for us to work on those things. Studies do suggest that dating post-separation can increase self-esteem and provide social support, but it should not be rushed into. So it’s important to be honest with yourself about whether or not you are emotionally ready. I often encourage clients to ensure that they’re not using dating as a way to fill a void, but rather as a step towards understanding themselves on a deeper level, their new life, or even their desires that might be different from their previous partner. And again, going back to what we mentioned before, it’s important to set clear boundaries and communication expectation when you are starting to date, because otherwise this can be a very slippery slope in getting hurt or burnt. Pulling yourself into maybe toxic relationships just because of unresolved things as part of your previous relationship may have not come to an end, or the grieving process hasn’t finished. And naturally, it can show up then in harmful ways for you or the people that you’re going into casual dating with.
Benjamin Bryant: And I imagine, Klaudia, you’d have to be pretty honest with your partner as well, or your casual partner, if I could say that, because you’d only be like, oh, sorry, mate, you’re just a stepping stone for me.
Klaudia Gebert: Yeah. And I guess that’s why we call casual relationships, “casual” relationships, right? And that’s why communication is so important. We encourage clients that if you’re actually going to go out there, and I would only be encouraging it if we’ve done the discussion on emotional readiness. If my client’s not emotionally ready, I will be getting them to really reconsider whether this is a step that they’re ready for, because it will come with its own challenges. But you are correct, Ben. It’s so important for us to be really open and honest about what we’re ready to give in these relationships, even though they are casual, because it just allows you to have the best experience you can and not lead somebody else on if you are not emotionally ready to go into something more serious, especially if you’re wanting for it to be casual at that stage.
Benjamin Bryant: And speaking of emotionally ready, how do you know when it’s okay to start looking for love again?
Klaudia Gebert: Oh, that’s a great question. Knowing when to seek new, serious relationship involves personal reflection and readiness. Successful new relationships often occur when individuals have achieved personal growth and understanding from their past experiences. So before entering a new serious relationship, it’s so important to feel confident and whole as an individual. There’s no, unfortunately, no set timeline, but you should feel that you’ve sufficiently grieved your past relationship, that you’ve understood and grown from the experience and are ready to pursue a new relationship for the right reasons, not out of loneliness or fear. So we would definitely not want the individual to be repeating the same attachments or issues that caused the end of their previous relationship. So that’s why I mentioned it earlier. If you naturally are the same person going into another serious relationship, it’s more likely that the same issues are going to arise, and that relationship again will not last. So there needs to be enough time for you to feel, not only do I feel confident within myself to step into something serious, I’m also willing and ready to continue to do the work on myself to ensure that this next serious relationship is one that’s going to be able to last, because otherwise you’re just going to be continuing the same patterns and then blaming that, “oh, it might be the other person”. It’s like, well, no, you need to take some responsibility and making sure that you’re regularly engaging in any form of work. It doesn’t have to be with a professional. If you are responsible enough to be doing the work yourself and feeling like, okay, I’m ready to take on that next step, please do. And if you’re noticing that you’re having some struggles in, your first serious relationship and similar patterns are coming up, or things that are coming up that you didn’t even realise were issues, bring that forward to family, friends, support systems, or even therapists to be able to ensure that if you are going to be putting time and effort into another serious relationship, we obviously want everybody to make sure that the effort that they’re putting in is going to be rewarding for them and the person that they’re going to be with. So we do encourage to get that support early if you are noticing things that are coming up that you may have not been aware of when you are making that decision: “You know what? I’m actually ready now for that serious relationship”. But you’re not going to know is when you actually then meet someone and you actually start being committed and serious again, there are going to be things that are going to come up that you may have not been aware of when you’ve made that commitment to yourself, that, okay, I’m ready, let’s go again.
Benjamin Bryant: Heather. Just before we go, I wanted to jump to you. You have had a long career, and I know you’ve had a lot of repeat clients. Do you have anything to say about life lessons and new relationships?
Heather McKinnon: look, it’s been beautifully covered by Klaudia. It’s a privilege to watch the human condition over four decades and see the commonality of the themes that we’re talking about. The big issue is: please understand yourself before you start trying to understand other people. The damage that’s done in our work, which was identified by Klaudia, where people lean for emotional support on children, particularly adolescents. It’s really important that people understand that adolescent children should not have the burden of having to carry their parents’ emotional needs. It’s very hard for people to see that when they’re in the middle of the breakdown of a team and family. So listen to that advice. And if you feel that you may be starting to talk to 15 and 16-year-olds about your emotional internal life, stop. Put the boundary up and go and get some help from a professional.
Benjamin Bryant: Exactly. All right. Well, that’s all the time that we have for today. Thank you so much, Klaudia. Before I let you go, I wanted to spruik your podcast because you’ve been doing a podcast for quite a while to our listeners, if anything that Klaudia has said today has resonated with them, there’s heaps of information and resources as well on Klaudia’s website about, self-help or, coping after separation She covers a whole range of topics, so please feel free to check out her website and her podcast Self Reflections. Thank you again so much, Klaudia.
Klaudia Gebert: Thank you both. Ben, Heather, it was a pleasure.
Benjamin Bryant: And thank you Heather once again.
Heather McKinnon: See you next time.
Benjamin Bryant: We created this podcast to provide you with the advice and information you need, so please make sure you review our growing library of episodes and experts to find the information that you need. If you have specific questions and can’t find the answers in our library, please email us on familymatters@bryantmckinnon.com.au. We will do our very best to get the answers that you need. Have a look at our website bryantmckinnon.com.au, where we have categorised the episodes to make it easier to find the information that you’re looking for. On the website, you’ll also find the full transcript of today’s show and links to any resources mentioned. A final reminder to please share this show with any family or friends who might benefit.
Benjamin Bryant: We hope to have your ears again soon.