Ben and Heather speak to Sandra Martel-Acworth, Practice Specialist (Counselling) at Relationships Australia NSW, about how to know if your relationship is salvageable. Sandra is a psychologist with a Masters in Couple and Family Therapy and years of experience in relationship counselling. She helps tease out answers to the following questions.
Sandra also considers 3 different scenarios and provides her thoughts on whether the relationship can move forward under these circumstances.
Should I Stay or Should I Go – this episode of our podcast featured the CEO of Relationships Australia, Elizabeth Shaw, weighing up the question of whether to stay in a relationship.
Rethinking Infidelity: TED Talk from Esther Perel
How to Find, Build and Healthy Romantic Relationships: Esther Perel guest appearance on The Huberman Lab podcast
Where Should I Begin: Esther Perel’s podcast counselling real couples for one hour
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Benjamin Bryant: Welcome to episode 58 of The Family Matters Show. I’m your host Benjamin Bryant from Bryant McKinnon Lawyers. In this episode, we will discuss a critical question everyone should ask themselves before heading down the path of separation. Is my relationship salvageable?
I am joined by my partner and family law specialist Heather McKinnon and our guest, Sandra Martel- Acworth. Sandy is a psychologist with a Masters in couple and family therapy. Couple and family counselling has been a core part of her work throughout her career and in her current role as the Practice Specialist of Counselling at Relationships Australia NSW. With her in-depth understanding of what makes a relationship tick, Sandy will help us tease out when your relationship can be saved and what steps you can take to get things back on track.
Before we get started, a reminder to our listeners that we have a library of over 50 episodes providing answers on a wide range of questions that arise through the journey of separation. If you are interested in today’s topic, you might also want to listen to episode 30 Should I Stay or Should I Go? In this episode, we chat with Elizabeth Shaw, CEO of Relationships Australia NSW, who offers some great advice for anyone on the precipice of separation. I also want to remind you to share this show with any family or friends entangled in a separation or divorce. The podcast will provide the answers to feel less fearful and to make informed decisions.
And now on with the show.
Benjamin Bryant: Hello, Heather and Sandy. Welcome to the show.
Heather McKinnon: Hi Ben.
Sandra Martel-Acworth: Hello.
Benjamin Bryant: Sandy, if someone is starting to think about separation but hasn’t yet spoken to their partner, what is the first thing you would recommend that they do?
Sandra Martel-Acworth: I guess it depends where they are on the decision-making kind of spectrum, but the first thing I would say, if they’ve thought about it, a number of times in their head: to get some information, I think would be a really important first step. Information is knowledge and can’t hurt. So that’s what I’d say.
The counsellor part of me, would also say, have you talked to your partner? And try and encourage them to talk to the partner, not necessarily about the separation, but definitely about the relationship and how they’re feeling. And I don’t mean talk to your partner like they may have already talked in the middle of an argument. You know, that doesn’t count. It’s that sitting down, timing it, being a bit vulnerable, using “I” statements, trying to get some soft start up where you preface that it’s going to be a difficult conversation and you don’t want to hurt them, but you want to have it. That kind of conversation is what I’m meaning…
Benjamin Bryant: …the real stuff.
Sandra Martel-Acworth: Yeah, it’s only happening at the end of arguments or that sort of thing, which isn’t going to be very helpful to anyone.
Benjamin Bryant: And I’m glad, Sandy, that you started off with information, because of course, that is the whole intention of the podcast that we’re doing here. Heather and I constantly say every day to people that we see, this is just about gathering the information to be able to make some informed decision.
Benjamin Bryant: Heather, I know you sometimes have people come in to see you before they’ve decided to separate. What advice do you give them?
Heather McKinnon: It’s very similar to what Sandy said. I think information is power. About half the people I see in a year are just weighing up the quality of their relationship, and I think practising in a region for a long time gives you an understanding of how this works. When people come, the first thing that I do is indicate to them that there are a number of people that can help them. So I check with them. Have they got a psychologist or counsellor on board? Do they understand their finances? So if they’ve got an accountant or a financial planner, I might suggest that if they feel a bit vulnerable in terms of knowledge, they get an understanding from those people. Sometimes we chat about why the crisis might be occurring, and I give them what we learn in the Family Court that there are certain stress points in relationships. So when the first baby arrives, or when children are in primary school or empty nest or the phenomenon, we’re now seeing of the silver divorce. So there’s certain transitions that we see as family lawyers, and some people are successfully able to navigate the transition without throwing the relationship out. What they’re feeling isn’t unusual, but what we can tell them is some people make it and some don’t. But certainly if you’re already at a lawyer’s office, at least you should be at a counsellor or psychologist, because it’s obviously pretty severe, if you’ve made that brave step to come and get advice.
Benjamin Bryant: And Sandy, what sorts of questions should someone ask themselves if they are trying to decide if their relationship is worth saving?
Sandra Martel-Acworth: I just wanted to, before that, quickly comment on I think it’s really interesting what you were saying, Heather, about the crisis. I think we all know that making big decisions in the middle of a crisis probably isn’t the best. I just think that that’s really interesting how people settle a crisis if they can and then possibly, make a more informed decision is a great point. And love your transitions that you’ve picked up that sort of pop up across a lifetime.
Sandra Martel-Acworth: You’re asking what questions should someone ask? The big question for me would be, is there still a part of me in this relationship? That would be sort of the number one. Even if it’s just a small part having that voice. Another question would be, is my partner willing to try and make this work with me? Because I do think it’s really hard if you’re the only one kind of prepared to invest and want to change things or invest more just in the relationship. It’s a relationship. So that’s hard to do completely on your own. And the last thing I was thinking about is that question, are there still things holding me here that are worth exploring, even small? Or is it my fear of the alternative and leaving that’s the only thing that’s holding me here.
Benjamin Bryant: Absolutely. I find myself, Sandy saying that, I guess, in my personal life, more so than in my professional life, the fear of being without is not necessarily a reason to be with.
Sandra Martel-Acworth: So it’s weighing the size of that debate. And we work on some quite small, “there’s still something in here” in couple counselling. And a bit like you guys, sometimes that’s enough and sometimes that isn’t enough to mend and heal a relationship. I don’t think any of us are very good at kind of guessing what it is that’s the essential ingredient in that. But you do need a small bit there at least. And it can’t be all about a fear of the alternative of leaving.
Benjamin Bryant: Is that what you’re drilling down to, Sandy, either as a psychologist or a couple counsellor, helping people make that decision?
Sandra Martel-Acworth: That would be something you would want to do fairly early or if not, get people to pause and put the decision making on hold while you spend a number of sessions sort of exploring what might be there. Like sometimes that takes a little bit of time as well. Certainly when someone first comes in, what you want to get an idea of is where each of their commitment is to the relationship and how much motivation to change and work on it you’ve got in the room. And if that’s zero for either one, it’s going to be hard work, and you would want to name that early on. But sometimes those aren’t questions people know the answer to immediately. So what you would request that they both commit to 4 to 6 sessions or something like that and put the decision making on hold while they openly explore it. Because I think if you’re not sure that someone’s still even possibly got a toe in the water, you’re not going to make yourself very vulnerable. You’re preparing for them to get out. And so that’s what you don’t want to do in couples counselling is sit there and spend the whole time protecting., You do need to give it a really good go, be a bit vulnerable. So that’s the sort of contracting we’re trying to do at the beginning of couple counselling, I think.
Benjamin Bryant: And I think the zero that you mentioned, I think that’s probably one of the red flags or one of the signs that the relationship is probably at its end. What are the other signs you look for in couples that show that it’s really time to move on?
Sandra Martel-Acworth: In an ideal world, I want to say the relationship not being safe. But I also need to add in that a lot of people stay in a relationship because they think that’s a safer decision. That’s complex and probably, ten podcasts worth of exploring that one. But I didn’t feel okay not saying it at all, that, you know, there is that sort of in the decision making in some relationships. And I was hesitant a bit to answer this because it just varies so much. But those things I said earlier, if both of you are not willing to work on it, then I would be really concerned. So if one’s a zero of those two, because in couples counselling you need a small amount from both still in the game. Not that it’s a game. And if you’re only motivation, what we’ve already talked about, is a fear of the alternative of leaving and all the difficulties that that involves, then I’m not sure counselling is going to be very helpful. I do want to say individual counselling might be, because you’re right, leaving is difficult, let’s be honest, for pretty well everybody. You know, it’s painful. You wouldn’t want to kind of make these decisions naively either. So sometimes having someone to talk to even about that, where you’re quite clear, I don’t have anything left in the game, but needing to talk that out is really realistic, I think.
Benjamin Bryant: And when considering this question, Sandy, I thought how I would answer it. One of the things that came to my mind was when you get to the stage of resentment. I think that’s a really difficult place to come back from. Would you agree, or would you see people in your role that do get to the stage of resenting the other person, but then come back from it?
Sandra Martel-Acworth: I want to say, I do feel like people can come back from that. Sometimes in couple counselling, one of the things you realise is a big part of what people are struggling with is the baggage they bring into a relationship. So from childhood, from other relationships possibly where when you’re in a relationship, you’re personalising absolutely everything. And so I think that unpacking and exploring and understanding each other and possibly each other’s sore points and how they’ve developed, you can actually change around from resentment to being a part of, not sort of miracle healing, but a part of holding someone and just knowing and understanding that that’s not you and slowly healing that. But it does take an amount of work. And like I say that sort of risk of being vulnerable when perhaps your tendency is to protect and shut down. So couple counselling is really hard in that way. you’re relying on another person to make that call and do that same thing. But yeah, what we bring into relationships and expectations and understanding each other, we do a lot of that along the way, but in counselling, I think that can be pretty helpful to understand…sometimes.
Benjamin Bryant: And Heather you’ve seen a lot of separated couples over the years, what’s the signpost for you that the relationship is truly over?
Heather McKinnon: Absolutely. I think it’s as identified by Sandy that if one person’s not prepared to enter the fray of examining what went wrong, then you really are faced with difficult decisions. Where I see people throwing the baby out with the bathwater most is if something happens, like the loss of a child, a major medical crisis, death of parents, the grief gets mixed up with the relationship. And so if people can hold their heads through that crisis, get individual help, and then come back together, they can smooth over that crisis. But very many times one’s just given up and not prepared to work. But I think that contempt is the really dangerous one. When you feel in the room that it’s gone from “I don’t want to be there” to contempt for the other person. That’s the pointy end of where it’s time to really say, I need to leave. There are all sorts of different ways of dealing with the problem, but I’d love to see people go into individual therapy before they chuck relationships out. But I think, Sandy, even that decision for someone in adulthood to be brave enough to face therapy is another whole podcast because, you know, you can try and say, look, it works, but it doesn’t mean you can get people there. The fear of opening up that Pandora’s Box of deep-seated damage from childhood, or whatever, is too big a journey for many people.
Sandra Martel-Acworth: Yeah, and I think that that contempt does need a lot of healing and repair, which maybe ties in a bit to your question earlier about resentment Ben. If that’s gone down that road very much, there’s a lot of, I don’t want to say permanent damage done, but there’s a lot of damage that’s been done. So to think you can just move forward from that is probably pretty naive. So needing to have a way of doing some healing and repair would be pretty essential. And if that was left too late, you can see that that becomes really problematic and just sits there in an awful way.
Benjamin Bryant: And I think it’s really interesting what Heather and I do on a daily basis, Sandy, and likely you do as well when meeting people and just explaining to them, how grief works and the grief cycle and how that works. And as we know, ordinarily there’s one party that, initiates a separation or initiates the conversation about separation, and the other party is having to play catch up. They’re like, well, I knew things weren’t great, but I didn’t think they were that bad. So getting people to understand that is a big part of our role.
Sandra Martel-Acworth: Esther Perel, have you heard of her? She’s got some Ted Talks and things, and I think she’s added a really interesting thought to this whole area in that idea that possibly a relationship isn’t just one long relationship, even with the same person, a series of relationships. And that kind of speaks to your crisis a bit Heather where, maybe we need to more as a society, think about that and pushing restart sometimes. But of course, you’ve got to heal some of the other stuff to kind of carry that through as well. So it’s complex if you’re choosing to do that. But you were talking about grief and loss. But of course, the other big one is affairs that we meet quite a lot as well. They’re big, whether a relationship can ride and turn something like that into a change, reinvest and move forward. Absolutely. Some people are able to do that. Not that I think that they would say it was all really worth it and I’ll relive that car crash again. But it’s kind of making the most out of something.
Benjamin Bryant: And we might put a link to Esther Perel’s Ted Talks on our website for our listeners to look into that.
Benjamin Bryant: Sandy, I just want to turn it around and speak positively. What encouraging signs that people can save the relationship. What are you looking for?
Sandra Martel-Acworth: A small commitment to both want to work on things? I don’t think that very often is the same size with either. When people come in for couples counselling, I just think it needs to be a small amount for each. Often, I think one of you’ve already sort of prefaced that it’s very different, and someone may have much more motivation than the other person, so it doesn’t need to be even, but it does need to exist in both. And as part of that, a motivation, not just a commitment to the relationship, but a commitment to be prepared to be open to some change. But the bigger it is, the better and the easier the work, obviously. But you can do something with something small sometimes, but it does need to be there. They’re probably my two big ones. I also think that children, that’s a big thing for couples. That if children are part of a relationship, you’re often talking something very different when it’s ending to if there aren’t children that exist. So I want to comment that I think people will sometimes invest more in seeing something through in that way, or at least give it a go and be a bit vulnerable and see if they can salvage, I think that was one of the words we’ve used, salvage a relationship. Yeah.
Benjamin Bryant: And Heather, it’s difficult to ask you I appreciate, because people come to us, and they may not be separated yet. And if it works out, we never see them again. But is there any insight that you can say, even from your personal life, about whether their relationship is salvageable or not?
Heather McKinnon: I think that it’s really weighing up what’s your value system in life. So some people clearly see they have an obligation to raise children, and they want to give their kids the best opportunity. And they know that if they impose a separation on children during childhood, that that may increase the risk that their kids won’t reach potential. It’s a real driving force. The other thing I think we don’t talk about is financial stability. Really weighing up the financial consequences can help people focus their minds. To see people near retirement age divide their capital base, and not be able to both get housing for retirement really sharpens their mind to, can we fix this and move forward without dividing that? So I think kids, finances: massive wake up call. So when people come to us and they analyse what life might be like on the other side, clearly a realistic picture helps them hone that “have I got enough in the game to work on it”? It’s really interesting to be a voyeur, if you like, on what are the value systems in each family?
Sandra Martel-Acworth: You need some help sometimes to do that. Because I was thinking, we’re talking about this with our frontal cortexes on, thinking brains in mode. But the reality is people come to this in incredible pain, hurting. So to have someone help them think some of that through and almost like turn that part of their brain on can be really important. Because it isn’t this logical thing happening very often.
Benjamin Bryant: And Sandy, hypothetically, let’s say I’ve decided that the relationship is worth saving. What do I do now? How can I rekindle a relationship that’s gone off the rails? I’m guessing it’s not as simple as sending some flowers.
Sandra Martel-Acworth: Yeah, I suspect it isn’t. Look, of course I’m a counsellor, so I genuinely want to say I think couple counselling can be helpful. I worry sometimes that being in this place in a relationship is about as tough as it gets. That sort of wanting to salvage something. So it just worries me sometimes, we have this do it on your own kind of culture in this country, and I do really want to encourage people to get some support, find a third person to help you negotiate the healing, as well as the kind of other side, if you make a decision to separate. So I’m giving counselling a big plug here quite seriously. Because I do think they can really help you look at communication patterns here and now and support you with changing, tweaking, doing things differently. Help you find and remind you and support you. What are the positive parts of the relationship and how do you regrow them? Understanding baggage from the past, like I said before, so you are less personalising everything and might understand more where each person’s coming from. Healing and repair. We talked about that. People really want to invest, but we might keep hitting sore spots. So how do we kind of really heal and repair that.
Sandra Martel-Acworth: But then separate to counselling, just that straight time together. I think that really varies with each couple, how much your lives overlap and how much they operate separately. But I’m pretty sure in terms of this stage of healing, you would need to invest some time together, giving and receiving, doing stuff for other, but you also need other to do stuff for you. If that sort of is all one directional you run out of energy pretty fast. But I think that’s sort of the scaffolding of a good relationship.
Benjamin Bryant: I’m just mindful of, what you spoke about at the start, in terms of coming from a place of vulnerability. So not necessarily strength. And this is, position based, but more that vulnerability, because the success or the demise of a relationship is really about trust and communication. what does the partner need or expect. in terms of the trust and communication? I think there’s something really to be said about that, coming from that place of vulnerability.
Sandra Martel-Acworth: And I think part of that is owning our own stuff too, isn’t it? And that can be really hard at times. We get very focused on other and what they need to change and turning the lens really onto ourselves and how we participate in relationships and interact and all of that can be quite exposing and make you feel quite vulnerable.
Benjamin Bryant: Sandy, a couple of years ago, we had your boss, Elizabeth Shaw, CEO of Relationships Australia NSW, on the podcast to discuss deciding to stay or leave a relationship. And for our listeners, this was episode 30. We asked for her thoughts on three different scenarios. We’re hoping you’d be willing to share your thoughts on these same situations. Is that okay with you?
Sandra Martel-Acworth: Give it a go.
Benjamin Bryant: Excellent. Scenario one: we can’t agree on how to raise our children, but we can still have fun together.
Sandra Martel-Acworth: It’s very common to have different ideas about how to parent children. And I think the thing that we see a lot in family counselling is how quickly that can polarise into very positioned parenting stuff that actually neither person owns completely and would love to kind of find somewhere more in the middle. So, for example, we talk a lot about the soft hard split where the more one parent gets harder, tougher, firmer, more black and white about everything, the more mushy, soft and mending the other parent gets until they just feel so disconnected. And young people, just not intentionally, but naturally, will drive a truck through the middle of them. That is really common. But where does it start? Does it start when that one parent is getting softer? Is that why another parent steps up to become firmer? Or is it more as one parent’s firm? It’s very chicken and egg. It’s actually an interactional pattern that a lot of parents get caught in. And then you add things like gender and stuff. So I genuinely, again, I think getting some help with that. There are great books, courses, lots of parenting courses that will try and help parents break that. Trying all those things first would be what I would say in that situation, because they’re not alone, and they’re not the first that have travelled to that really difficult spot.
Benjamin Bryant: Interesting. I think the soft, hard split is going to resonate a lot with our listeners. Sandy’s scenario number two: things are good, but are they good enough?
Sandra Martel-Acworth: Again, I mentioned Esther Perel earlier and I think she talks a little bit to this too, just how demanding we are of relationships, possibly in this new era. I don’t even know when I say this new era, what time frame I have there, but now. I do love that saying the grass is greener where you water. I think it holds a lot for any relationship, but particularly couple relationships. And my only caveat in that, and I think we’ve talked about it a lot today, is you both need to want to water the grass. You both need to want that relationship and to keep growing it. And if you feel really alone in that, then that can get harder and harder. So time and effort and energy really.
Benjamin Bryant: And final scenario. Sandy, my partner and I get on really well when it’s just the two of us, but I can’t stand being around their friends and family.
Sandra Martel-Acworth: I think I mentioned earlier that, we find in couple relationships, we notice when they come into counselling, there’s a huge variation in how much those couples’ lives overlap and how much they operate separately. What I’ve come to realise is they do need some overlap, or people just seem to distance and distance more and more. But what that ideal is, I’ve got no idea. The key seems to be whether both people agree on the amount of overlap versus how much they do separately in a relationship. And when there’s a disagreement around that, that can create tension. So I guess one of my thoughts here is, not having to do absolutely everything together. But then another part of me, my thoughts are we do need to give in a relationship, and we do need to be prepared to stretch ourselves and do stuff sometimes that we’re not that into or keen on. So where’s the balance in that. And again, it’s that thing for me: is my partner also doing that. Whereas if it’s always feeling like that’s just coming from me, then that doesn’t work. Where if it’s a real give and take, then I think you can sort these sorts of things a bit, where you go to some friends and family and not others and negotiate around that and feel that there also, when you’re doing that and stretching yourself in some way you don’t want to be, there’s an equivalent where they’re giving to you in some ways.
Benjamin Bryant: And the old two-way street.
Sandra Martel-Acworth: Yeah, it’s huge, isn’t it? Like it’s a really big deal in a couple relationship.
Benjamin Bryant: Sandy, do you have any final thoughts for our listeners on deciding whether to work on salvaging their relationship?
Sandra Martel-Acworth: Probably just, those things that Heather said. It’s a big decision to separate. So really getting some support and thinking that position through, whether that be individually, hopefully wherever possible as a couple, before that, but also getting information. I think they’re sort of some key things.
Benjamin Bryant: Heather final thoughts?
Heather McKinnon: Look, I think for me it’s know yourself. I mean, what I’ve seen in, being in the community for decades, if you don’t find what makes you happy, you’ll just recreate the same issues in the next relationship. Don’t assume that relationships are what are going to fulfil your life. Make sure you’re strong yourself, and what you bring is a fully functional adult to the relationship. So do that individual work with counsellors or psychologists on this journey, because if you don’t, you’ll just turn up back in our office in ten years’ time, going through the same issues.
Heather McKinnon: And the only other advice is I think love is time. I think in this culture we’re drawn in so many directions and you really have to work out where you put your time. So if you choose to put your time in your intimate relationships and in your family, you have to really stick boundaries up around that, because you haven’t got time to then nurture a whole other heap of things. That’s what I’ve seen, in the privilege of helping people navigate this. If you don’t do the work, you’re just going to keep repeating it. The door’s going to keep revolving, and you’re going to get slapped around the head again.
Benjamin Bryant: More green grass and water.
Heather McKinnon: Yep.
Sandra Martel-Acworth: We’re going to remember that. It is a great saying isn’t it.
Heather McKinnon: It’s excellent.
Benjamin Bryant: All right well thank you Sandy. And thank you Heather for your input. I’m sure this is a great show for our listeners, and it’s going to help a lot of people. So thank you.
Heather McKinnon: Thanks, Sandy.
Benjamin Bryant: Thank you for listening today. We hope this exploration of whether a relationship can be saved will be helpful in any future decisions you may have to make.
There are so many decisions to be made when you’re going through a separation, and that’s why we created this podcast. We now have an extensive library of episodes on different topics featuring different experts, so make sure to review our growing library to find the answers you need.
Have a look at our website (bryantmckinnon.com.au) where we have categorised the episodes to make it easier to find the information you are looking for. If you enjoyed today’s show, check out episode 30 Should I Stay or Should I Go? featuring Elizabeth Shaw, CEO of Relationships Australia NSW. You’ll also find the full transcript of today’s show on the website, along with the links to any resources mentioned.
If you have specific questions and can’t find the answers in our library, please email us at familymatters@bryantmckinnon.com.au. We will do our best to include your question in our next Community Questions episode. A final reminder to please share this show with any friends or family who may benefit. We hope to have your ears again soon.